圣菲利普号（San Felipe）和西班牙三层甲板战舰（更新了哦！！！！）

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话说在正规文件里查不到任何资料，看到中国模型界里这艘船这么火，什么西班牙无敌舰队的旗舰，但是没有船史，几乎查不到。所以闲来无聊用CA的google查了一下，下面是我找到的资料，手工翻译哦{:soso__11831903320155956023_1:}
（明天要ENG和SCIENCE要考试了，祝福我吧{:soso__11867380094370740720_3:} ）
首先转贴需要说明，基本网络规则之一。
以下内容来自
http://www.modelships.de/San_Fel ... 90_authenticity.htm
（中文不太好，表达不完美请见谅）

圣菲利普号是最受船模爱好者青睐的船之一。这艘船非常精致，良好的设计，非常适合摆在家里或者办公室里作为装饰。
The SAN FELIPE is one of the most favoured ships among the ship model builders. The model is elegant, very beautifully designed, and makes a decorative piece of art to be displayed at home or in the office.
我听到许多对于这艘船历史真实性的质疑，主要是在船舶历史，和船舶模型的论坛里。某个论坛里Toni Alvarez做了一些贡献，1999 四月，他去了三次马德里的海军博物馆。他却找不到任何关于圣菲利普是否存在的信息。他还联系了Mantua和Artesania Latina，资讯他们的模型套材，但也没有得到任何可信的回复。
Doubts on San Felipe's historic authenticity I have heard voiced or seen many times, mainly in forums on ship history and ship modelling. There was the contribution of Toni Alvarez Silva of April 1999 in some forum, who went three times to the Museo Naval in Madrid. He could not get any information there whether the San Felipe existed or not. He also contacted Mantua and Artesania Latina and asked them about their model kits of the San Felipe, without getting convincing responses.

这网页上的三个圣菲利普号模型就很可能是这些套材做的。这些套材图纸是根据Departamento de Falanges del Ma1950年发行的“圣菲利普”的图画。（见下文）
The three San Felipe ship models (1, 2, 3) in this webpage were probably made from these kits. The plans of the kits are based on drawings of the “San Felipe” that were published in the 1950s by the Departamento de Falanges del Mar“ (see below).
很可能西班牙的叫“圣菲利普”三层甲板战舰在1690根本不存在。就像 Mr. Leber 在图纸和模型套材中展现的1700年西班牙战舰船体建筑元素和绳索里描述的。但是问题仍然存在：为什么这些套材制作者不指1688 年的 Nuestra Señora de la Concepción y de las Ánimas Nuestra？那艘船的确存在而且有细节记载。（见下文）
Most probably a Spanish three-decker with the name “San Felipe” did not exist in 1690. As outlined by Mr. Leber the plans and model ship kits show construction elements of hull and rigging of Spanish ships of the line around 1700. But the question remains: Why don’t the kit makers refer to a ship like the Nuestra Señora de la Concepción y de las Ánimas Nuestra of 1688? That ship did exist and has been described in detail (see below).
我想引用最近在学习西班牙最初两个3层甲板战舰的历史背景的 Markus Leber 博士的工作。
I would like to quote a work of Dr. Markus Leber who in recent years has studied the historical background of the first two three-deckers that were launched in Spain.
暂且翻译到这里。

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西班牙1700年左右的三层甲板战舰

许多船模还好这被三层甲板战舰迷住了。强大的武装和令人瞩目的装饰让他们变成了力量和代表他们的国家和皇家王朝的标志。不幸的是关于西班牙三层甲板战舰只有有限的英文或者德文的资料，有的还不是正确的。流传于西班牙历史学家的西班牙文献记载和传说给了这个方面更有意思的新理解。
Spanish three-deckers around 1700

Many ship modellers are fascinated by three-deckers. Heavily armed and with compelling decorations they were symbols of power, representing their nation and royal dynasty. Unfortunately on Spanish three-deckers around 1700 there is only sparse literature in English or German, and part of that is not always correct. Spanish literature sources and talks with Spanish historians give new interesting insights on that topic.
1. The „Nuestra Señora de la Concepción y de las Ánimas” (1688)
第一个有记载的西班牙海军三层甲板战舰是„Nuestra Señora de la Concepción y de las Ánimas“。1682年由 D. Antonio De Amas 造船师在Colindres (Cantabria)造船厂开始建造，此船的排水量可能在1500吨左右。
José Antonio de Gaztañeta (1656 – 1728) 在1687年参观了造船厂，来搜集关于新的旗舰的资料。作为西班牙舰队的上将，直到18世纪，Gaztañeta 还显著地影响了西班牙的造船业。他的1691年的书„Arte de Fabrica Reales”包括了„Nuestra Señora de la Concepción y de las Ánimas“的细节图纸。这有一个船尾的视图，一个侧视图还有一个船尾楼的细节图。这艘船被描述成一艘小型三层甲板战舰，没有提升的艏楼，装载90-94门炮。在1688年下水后，他被转移到Santoña进行完善。在1690年5月这艘船的桅杆被装上了。这艘船被当年的Martin Amigo 画下来了。那是一张画在210*135cm油画布上的油画。现在这幅画在堂区教堂 „Iglesia de la Asunción“ in Arcenillas, Zamora。

„Nuestra Señora de la Concepción y de las Ánimas“侧视图  作者：José Antonio de Gaztañeta

„Nuestra Señora de la Concepción y de las Ánimas“ 船尾图  作者： José Antonio de Gaztañeta

„Nuestra Señora de la Concepción y de las Ánimas“ 油画  作者：Martín Amigo  年代：1690

1. The „Nuestra Señora de la Concepción y de las Ánimas” (1688)

The first proven three-decker of the Spanish navy was the „Nuestra Señora de la Concepción y de las Ánimas“. Construction of that ship began in 1682 by the shipbuilder D. Antonio De Amas at the Colindres (Cantabria) shipyard. The displacement of the ship might have been about 1500 tons.

In 1687 José Antonio de Gaztañeta (1656 – 1728) visited the shipyard to catch up on the work at the new flagship. As admiral of the Spanish Armada Gaztañeta did influence the Spanish ship building markedly, till the 18th century. His book „Arte de Fabrica Reales” of 1691 [1] contains detailed drawings of the „Nuestra Señora de la Concepción y de las Ánimas“. There is a view of the stern, a side view and a detail drawing of the stern gallery (see Fig. 1 and 2). The ship is shown as small three-decker without elevated forecastle, carrying 90 to 94 guns.
After launching in 1688 the ship was transferred to Santoña and completed. In May 1690 the masts were set in place. The ship’s painting by Martin Amigo is from that year (see Fig. 3). It is an oil painting on canvas 210 * 135 cm. Today that painting is in the parish church „Iglesia de la Asunción“ in Arcenillas, Zamora.

The painting is consistent with the drawings by Gaztañeta. Both contemporary sources show that the „Nuestra Señora de la Concepción y de las Ánimas“ was designed and built as a three-decker. In the Museo Naval in Madrid there is a model of the Nuestra Senora that has been built to these sources. It is interesting to compare the stern section of the painting of Martin Amigo with the high resolution photos of the corresponding page of Gaztañeta's manuscriptum and the stern of the model.
这个当年的资料否定了1732年“真实的菲利普”是第一艘西班牙三层甲板战舰的说法。
很少有关于 „Nuestra Señora de la Concepción y de las Ánimas“后来的使用的资料。在1690年10月15日，这艘船离开了Santoña，驶向Cadiz，被两艘战舰护卫着， „San Carlos“ 和 „San Juan“（我一个哥伦比亚（南美）同学叫juan{:soso_e113:} ），还有一些商船。在这之后她就大部分在Cadiz被使用。这艘船参加了1700年的一次远征，去把苏格兰人从加勒比的Darien海湾赶走。在1702年她又在被英荷舰队围攻的Cadiz出现。
在西班牙王室继承战争期间，这艘船处于一个糟糕的状况。因为她的炮被拿走，用来分配给其他的战舰。在1705年这艘船最终还是在Cadiz解体了。
The contemporary sources contradict statements that the “Real Felipe” of 1732 was the first Spanish three-decker [2, 3].

Little is known about the subsequent use of the „Nuestra Señora de la Concepción y de las Ánimas“. On 15 October 1690 the ship left Santoña for Cadiz, escorted by the ships of the line „San Carlos“ and „San Juan“, and some merchant ships. In the years thereafter she was mainly used in Cadiz. The ship took part in an expedition, in 1700, to expel the Scots from the Gulf of Darien in the Caribbean. In 1702 she was in Cadiz when the city was besieged by an Anglo-Dutch squadron [10].
During the War of the Spanish Succession the ship was in a bad shape. Because of that her guns were taken from her and used by other ships of the line. In 1705 the ship was finally broken up in Cadiz.
未完待续！！！

mimilion

{:soso_e179:}爱好的第一步就是充分了解

robornic

原文我看完了，很有意思，真实的西班牙历史上1700年左右三层甲板战舰只有两艘，Nuestra Senora de la Concepción y de las Animas(1688)，和 Real Felipe (1732)，而现代模型届所熟知的San Felipe（1690）图纸首次出版于1950年，经考证其图纸来源主要基于Real Felipe (1732)，由于年代久远资料残缺，所以缺失的部分作者参考其他同年代战舰补上，于是诞生了这条“虚实结合”的“圣菲”......

所以准确的说这条“圣菲”，在历史上是不存在的。原文作者的探究精神值得学习，特别是文中引用资料作者Dr. Markus Leberbo博士，学术精神更是值得敬佩{:soso_e113:}{:soso_e179:}

robornic

另外，LZ，给你指出个小小的谬误，Real Felipe 应该翻译作“皇家菲利普”，这是西班牙语不是英语的那个real。想想西甲豪门“皇家马德里”就是如此。。。嘿嘿加油

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2. “真实的菲利普号”（1732）
这艘船以西班牙国王菲利普5世，第一个西班牙波旁王朝统治者，企图在王位继承战争中从Austrian Habsburgs 手中保住王位。
这艘船由Ciprián Autrán 和 Pedro Boyer 用Antonio de Gaztañeta 的系统和新的设计来建造。在Guarnizo in Santander 造船厂的建造工作在1732年结束。这艘三层甲板战舰是一个1965吨排水量和114门炮的巨人。在当时只有法国人的闪电好更大。
1740年的舰上人员注册显示了有1152人。“真实的菲利普号”证明了她自己是一艘火力强大的坚固的船。在1744年2月22日的Toulon战役中，她持续地被英国战舰攻击。根据英国资料记载，她可以承受所有的攻击然后像“鬼神”一样的战斗。无论如何，这艘船损坏的很严重以至于后来她从来没有完整的修复过，因为太高的修护费。在1750年，他最终也是解体了。
“真实地菲利普号”应该是当时在西班牙舰队最大也是最漂亮的船。奇怪的是，当时竟然没有关于这艘船可证实图画。在书里，文章里，网络上可以找到很多描述，但是没有一个是当时记载的文献。Jose Ignacio Gonzales-Aller Hierro，前任的马德里Museo海军博物馆的馆长，提供了一些信息。他出版了一些关于西班牙舰队的书，还有海军博物馆的藏物资料。在他出版的“真正的菲利普号”和“El navíos de tres puentes en la Armada española”里，他详细地描述了这艘船的历史。所以他应该知道一些当时的文献。他告诉我根本没有证实的当时的关于这艘船的图画或者图纸。就算最著名的这艘船的图纸，也没有人知道是谁画的或者什么时候画的。
第一幅“真正的菲利普号”图画是在18世纪下半叶José Manuel de Moraleda y Montero 画的，他是一个1750年出生的艺术家，在那艘船损坏的那年。
在1796年，一系列的关于toulon战役的浮雕被一些艺术家创作。“真实的菲利普号”在不同的时间被描述成不同的样子，这就取决于究竟是那个艺术家来画他。Jose Ignacio Gonzales-Aller Hierro 向我说明了关于那艘船的描述并不是和18世纪早期的西班牙战舰吻合。

在20世纪一些图纸被Rafael Berenguer Moreno de Guerra画出来。不管怎么样，他的图纸和上图描述的不一样。1981年的„El Buque en la Armada Espanola“书里，可以找到一些粗略的“真实地菲利浦号”重建资料。这些描述至少和18世纪天马行空的想象不一样。
2. The „Real Felipe“ (1732)

The ship was named after Philipp V of Spain, the first Bourbon ruler of Spain, who in the War of the Spanish Succession managed to defend his throne against the claims of the Austrian Habsburgs.
The ship was built by Ciprián Autrán and Pedro Boyer using the system and the new design specifications of Antonio de Gaztañeta. The work on the shipyard of Guarnizo in Santander was finished in 1732. This three-decker was a giant of 1965 tons that could take up to 114 cannon. At that time only the French Foudroyant was larger.

In a register of 1740 the crew was stated to be 1152 men. The “Real Felipe” proved to be a firm vessel of great firepower. In the battle of Toulon on 22 February 1744 she was repeatedly attacked by British ships [4]. She could repulse all attacks and fought “like hell”, according to English sources. However, the ship was damaged so badly that she was never completely repaired, due to high cost. In 1750 she was finally broken up.

The „Real Felipe“ is supposed to be the largest and most beautiful ship of the Spanish fleet at that time. Strangely, despite of that there is no proven contemporary illustration of her. In books, articles or Internet one can find many depictions, but they are all different and none of them is contemporary. Jose Ignacio Gonzales-Aller Hierro, the former curator of the Museo Naval in Madrid, provided some information. He has published several books about the Spanish fleet, and about the inventory of the Museo Naval. In his publications „Navío Real Felipe“ [5] and „El navíos de tres puentes en la Armada española“ [6] he in detail outlined the history of the ship. So he should know about contemporary sources. He told me that there are indeed no proven contemporary drawings or paintings of the ship. Even with the most prominent drawing of the ship (see Fig. 4) one does not know when the drawing was made and by whom.

The first illustration of the „Real Felipe“ was made in the second half of the 18th century by José Manuel de Moraleda y Montero. The artist was born only in 1750, the year when the ship was broken up.
In 1796 a series of engravings about the battle of Toulon 1744 was made by some artists. The “Real Felipe” is depicted differently each time, depending on the artist. Jose Ignacio Gonzales-Aller Hierro stated to me that the ships depicted do not correspond to Spanish ships of the line during the first half of the 18th century.
In the 20th century some drawings of the ship were made by Rafael Berenguer Moreno de Guerra. However, his drawings differ from the one shown in Fig. 4. In the book „El Buque en la Armada Espanola“ [8] of 1981 one can find a somewhat sketchy reconstruction of the “Real Felipe”. This depiction, too, differs from those of the 18th century and looks like being based mostly on imagination.
未完待续！！！

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5# robornic


嗯，高中没学西班牙语，{:soso_e118:} ”真实马德里“{:soso_e128:}

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占楼完毕{:soso_e121:}
继续{:soso__2758070384185561343_2:}
3. 三层甲板战舰“圣菲利普号”的来历
在说英语或者德语的国家里，只有很少的1700年左右真实存在的三层甲板西班牙战舰的模型。相反，圣菲利普号却成为最受欢迎也最漂亮的一艘。这艘船经常和意大利历史学家Vincenzo Lusci 联系起来，也就是这艘船的创建者。关于那艘船的图纸很老，也不是意大利语记载的，是从西班牙来的。只有Vincenzo Lusci第一次提出的1690年还是令人怀疑的年代。第一幅圣菲利普号的图纸是在1950年由Departamento de Falanges del Mar“发行的。西班牙历史学家 Juan Carlos Mejias Tavero在他2006年的文章里展示了这幅图纸„San Felipe, Real o Ficción“ 。
3.The origin of the three-decker „San Felipe“

In the English- and German-speaking countries there have only few models been built of the Spanish three-deckers that really existed around 1700. Instead, the „San Felipe” became the most prominent one and a well-known ship. The ship is often connected to the Italian historian Vincenzo Lusci as originator. Despite of that the draft is older and not of Italian, but Spanish origin. Only the dubious dating to 1690 is mentioned by Vincenzo Lusci for the first time.
The first drawing of the “San Felipe” was published in the 1950s by the Departamento de Falanges del Mar“. The Spanish historian Juan Carlos Mejias Tavero presented this drawing in his 2006 article „San Felipe, Real o Ficción“ [7].

上图展示了一部分图纸。由 Vincenzo Lusci 画的图志和mantua船模套材有显著的不同。船尾上部的装饰更精美，装饰物也不一样。相对于在船尾楼下面圆的装饰物，那有一个有圆形窗户的小甲板。这幅图的作者已经无从可知了。
Fig. 5 shows part of this drawing. There are marked discrepancies to the drawing by Vincenzo Lusci and the Mantua model kit drawings. The taff-rails at the stern are more elaborately decorated and the ornamentation of the stern is different. Instead of the round ornaments below the galleries there is a deck with round windows. It is not known who exactly made this drawing.
在 „El Buque en la Armada Espanola“这本书里有一副Rafael Berenguer Moreno de Guerra画的圣菲利普号插图。在图上有注释„Interpretation de Berenguer de un navio espaniol de tres puentes de finales del siglo XVII, o principios del XVIII“。为了希望找到更多圣菲利普号的历史，一位“Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau”里面的说西班牙语的人，Peter Böhmer先生，给西班牙历史家Berenguer打了电话。Berenguer先生以他的的西班牙战舰的插图而著名，这些图很多都被引用在书里和文章里。期间这位88岁的老先生向Bohmer先生解释了这些插图是由一位西班牙船模制作者在1950年画的。根据Berenguer先生这些插图应该原意是指1732年的”皇家菲利普号“。但是因为没有很好的历史记载这幅图融合了一些1700年早期的西班牙战舰的特点。
In the book „El Buque en la Armada Espanola“ [8] there is a illustration of the “San Felipe” (page 177) which was drawn by Rafael Berenguer Moreno de Guerra. Above that illustration is a commentary „Interpretation de Berenguer de un navio espaniol de tres puentes de finales del siglo XVII, o principios del XVIII“. Hoping to get some more information about the origin of the “San Felipe”, a Spanish speaking member of the “Arbeitskreis historischer Schiffbau”, Mr. Peter Böhmer, phoned the Spanish historian Berenguer. Mr. Berenguer is famous for his many drawings of Spanish ships of war that are cited in many books and articles. The meanwhile 88-year-old explained to Mr. Böhmer that the drawing was made by a Spanish ship modeller in the 1950s. According to Berenguer the draft should originally represent the “Real Felipe” of 1732. But because of the poor historical sources a draft was generated that combined some properties of Spanish ships of the line in early 1700s.
”皇家菲利普号“和”圣菲利普号“的关系可以在西班牙语言中找到。有几次”圣菲利普号“模型在西班牙被命名为”1732年的皇家菲利普号“。Mejias Tavero，在他的文章中的”圣菲利普号“，也是参考了皇家菲利普号，和“Arte de Fabricar Reales”的图纸。我们可以假设”圣菲利普号“可能是另外一种关于那个缺乏记载的1732年”皇家菲利普号“的版本。
A connection of „Real Felipe“ and „San Felipe“ can be found elsewhere in Spanish literature [9]. Several times models of the “San Felipe” have been named “Real Felipe of 1732”. Mejias Tavero [7], in his article about the „San Felipe“, too, refers to the „Real Felipe“ and to drawings of the “Arte de Fabricar Reales”. One can assume that the ”San Felipe” might be just another interpretation of the poorly documented Spanish flagship “Real Felipe” of 1732.

抛开这个话题不说，作为一个船模制作者还是有个问题在困扰着我，是否圣菲利普号有18世纪早期的西班牙战舰特点？我们只能参考当时的 Antonio de Gaztañeta的图画。这有一个1712年的线型图，如上图所示，这是他和圣菲利普号线性图的对比。
Irrespectively of this, for a ship modeller the question remains whether the “San Felipe” has at all properties of Spanish ships of early 18th century. To judge about this we can only refer to the few contemporary drawings of Antonio de Gaztañeta. There is a lines drawing of 1712, shown in Fig 6, that is compared to the lines of the “San Felipe”.
船体的形状看起来确实非常相像。在圣菲利普号辅助材的顶上的船体比在水线部分的窄的多。水下靠近船尾的船壳的线条被扭曲并趋向船体中部。但是这艘船的水线部分非常的宽。这也是1712年Gaztañeta’线型图所示的形状。但是不管怎么样Gaztañeta’的线型图所标示的是一艘大型的2层甲板战舰，文件显示这艘圣菲利普号和一些18世纪早期的西班牙战舰有很多相同之处。
The forms of the hulls look quite similar, indeed. At the top futtocks the “San Felipe” hull is built much narrower than at the water line. The lines of the underwater hull close to the stern are bent to midships. By that the ship looks especially wide at the waterline. This form is shown by a 1712 lines drawing of Gaztañeta, too. Even though Gaztañeta’s lines represented larger two-deckers, the documents show that the „San Felipe“ has some similarity to Spanish ships of the line in early 18th century.
在1750年图纸里所描述的线型图，船体的形状的确改变了。这艘船更垂直了，而且水线下的船尾部分更宽大了。
As the lines of 1750 show, the form of the hull did change. The ship’s side was more vertical now and the underwater hull was bulkier towards the stern.

一些圣菲利普号的细节可以在可以在其他的当时作品中找到。上图显示了一艘西班牙1700年2层甲板战舰archive of Sevilla。这艘船在前艏楼和尾楼处也有圆的火炮。船艏斜桅穿过前隔板仓并有一些向上，不在第一层甲板的高度。一些了解圣菲利普号的人可以认出这模型的轮廓。Mejias Tavero推论这些细节是从Arte de Fabrica Reales来的。

Some details of the „San Felipe“ can be found in other contemporary drawings. Fig. 7 shows a drawing of a Spanish two-decker around 1700 (archive of Sevilla). This ship also has the round gunports on the forecastle and the poop. The bowsprit enters the front bulkhead at some elevation and not at deck level. Someone who knows the “San Felipe” can recognize contours of the model. Mejias Tavero deduced some details of the decoration from drawings of the „Arte de Fabrica Reales.
圣菲利普号的图纸和船模展示了一些1700年西班牙战舰的特点。不管怎么说，一个问题还没有解决:为什么这些船模套材制造商不来做一艘真正存在的并有详细资料记载船呢？
The “San Felipe” plans and the ship models show some properties of Spanish ships of the line around 1700. However, one question remains: Why don’t the kit makers refer to a ship that did exist at that time and that has been described quite in detail?
完{:soso__150031474432529520_4:}

芝华士

资料技术贴留名

流浪的小西

学习了。{:soso_e179:}